Episode 59: Understanding Myers-Briggs with Frank James

Ep. 59 (Frank James)

[00:00:10] Emma-Louise Parkes: Hello. 

[00:00:12] Frank James: Hi. Thanks for having me. 

[00:00:15] Emma-Louise Parkes: Thanks for joining me. This was possibly the fastest. Let’s have an idea for a podcast guest to actually recording that I’ve ever done probably about a day or. 

[00:00:27] Frank James: Yeah, you sent me an email. It wasn’t even, well, yeah, it was a little more than 24 hours. Yeah. So wait, 

[00:00:37] Emma-Louise Parkes: we like to strike while the iron is hot, which I appreciate.

So you are the type of person, I think, as an inf J and as someone that majority of my clients, Ryan. And all think the unicorns until they’ll meet each other, you look on the person that we really go. You are in our heads, you get it. Like, I will literally roll, laughing at your videos. And I mean, I never J so I don’t laugh a lot because it’s funny because it’s true now.

I guessing you hear this all the time, and obviously you talk about all of the types, but being an IMFJ yourself. Was it from that? Oh my God. I’m understood. Like something gets me. Is that what kind of spurred you on to get so interested in Myers-Briggs? 

[00:01:29] Frank James: Yeah, I think, you know what, when I first started making YouTube videos, I was, you know, going through a process of kind of figuring out who I was and entering a time of my life, where things were.

Sort of uncertain. And I was also like, I gotta, I gotta figure out what I’m going to do. Cause I was like 20, 28, 29 and I wasn’t really doing much with my life. So I was like, uh, yeah. And, uh, when I discovered Myers-Briggs it was the kind of thing that, yeah, I felt like, oh, I mean I’m operating in a slightly different way than maybe is the norm.

And then on YouTube, there were at the time, you know, several people who were making videos that were kind of like, you know, bedroom, confessional style. Um, the videos, just talking about their experiences and tying it into the personality type, whether or not they were like accurate in, in their assessment of how their, how their life connected to personality is irrelevant.

You know, because I, I found some connection there and that inspired me to also do the same thing, because I had always wanted to kind of put my. Thoughts out there in a public forum where anyone could see it. And so I started making those same kind of bedroom confessional things. And then at a certain point, I was like, I want to teach this.

I think I NF J’s in particular. Uh, how are just natural teachers and whenever they look, it’s like five minutes after you started learning something, you want to start with teaching it. So I was learning about Myers-Briggs and teaching it almost at the same time, like starting to make videos like that.

And that’s how my YouTube channel started to gain followers and get more popular when I started to teach more. And. After, you know, about a year of doing that, I started to do comedy sketches with all 16 Myers-Briggs personalities and, you know, each of them, the first one was the 16 personalities at a job interview and how each, each type stereotypically would act in that situation.

And that’s what really caught on, because I think at that point it was like anyone at any time. I could watch it and identify themselves and identify people in their lives and then get a better sense of what each type was like, because you know, when you start painting with these broad brush strokes, it’s easier to kind of tell the types of part.

So that, yeah, that’s my, my journey, basically when it comes to YouTube and how I got involved with NBTI and the more you study it, the more you want to learn and the more you want to master it, and you, once you get to a certain point, you. Go a day an hour. You can’t have an interaction with someone without thinking about personality.

So it’s just like part of my way of looking at the world now. Do you 

[00:04:31] Emma-Louise Parkes: type characters in TV shows and like just automatically in your head and when you meant like I typed jeopardy contestants. 

[00:04:40] Frank James: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Once 

[00:04:44] Emma-Louise Parkes: you do it, you can’t stop 

[00:04:47] Frank James: it, especially when you can. Uh, show like a reality show where you have a bunch of different people reacting in different ways to the same situation.

And you’re like, okay, why is it that this person over a year is freaking out, but this person isn’t and why are they going through the same problem? But they’re looking at different parts of it. That kind of thing will. Yeah, that really gets my mind going and yeah. T TV characters, game show contestants, um, anything it’ll be like, I’ll be watching like a baseball game and I’ll be like, what type is the pitcher?

That’s, that’s a little extreme, but you know, it’s like, anytime you hear someone talking and you’re trying to like grab on to. Hmm, how is it that they are processing information? How are they making decisions? How do they look at other people? How do they look at other things in the world? It’s very fascinating.

And I think everyone comes into Myers, Briggs, looking at themselves, wanting to understand themselves. And at a certain point you realize that it’s actually a much more valuable. When you’re trying to understand everyone else around you and that’s, you know, that’s when it really opens up your mind opens up, you know, the way you look at the world.

[00:06:06] Emma-Louise Parkes: When I first took the test, I think it was Tim Ferris. I’m going to credit Tim Ferriss anyway, because I just listened to some kind of podcast like that, who started talking about introverts extroverts. It was about five years ago and I was like, oh, that’s pretty interesting. Let’s let’s have a look at that.

So to test came back, I Neff Jay read. It was like, wow. Frightening and straight away thought of a friend of mine who I just knew straight away. I was like, well, if I’m that, he’s going to be that. So he sent him the link. I was like, take this test and tell me what, let us come up. And then 10 minutes later, he’s like, I NFJ Y and then I was like, okay, I love this.

And I’m definitely onto something there. 

[00:06:48] Frank James: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it’s, uh, you know, Tim Ferriss, I and TJ, and I believe it’s, it’s funny how you, uh, once you start to like connect those dots, like, oh, this is what cause we all we all in here, we all instinctively pick up on personality type. ’cause you’ll meet two different people who don’t know each other who are like totally different walks of life.

And you’re like, they’re the same person, like what is going on here? So, and of course we all know there’s like more than 16 different types of people we’ve met, but we’ve definitely all met two people who were like the same personality. So Myers-Briggs is just attempting to kind of. Pick apart, what are the patterns that we are, we are picking up on when we noticed that and what is actually going on behind the scenes there, and then what do we call that?

And, um, yeah, so it’s just, it’s just a totally fascinating thing. And some people are like, oh man, it’s putting us into a box. It’s, you know, telling people who they are and aren’t, and to me, it’s like, no, it’s, it’s pretty, open-ended. And it’s not like labeling every little thing about you. It’s just, it’s really just comes down to how do you make decisions or judgements and how do you like become aware of reality?

How do you perceive things? How do you make observations is really those two things. And that’s what. 

[00:08:16] Emma-Louise Parkes: And that’s such an important part. I think, because this is discussions that I have with people online when they say, oh, it shouldn’t matter. And it is putting people into a box and it’s typing people. But I think that anything can be used, you know, I’ve had people use it as an excuse, like, oh, well I can’t do this in business because I’m an entry.

And I’m like, mm, not quite true, but you know what it does give you is awareness. So yeah, if you’re an introvert and you actually need a lot of alone time and you need to make sure that you recharge then having that kind of awareness, I think that’s really almost permission given to a lot of people rather than, oh, I am this thoroughly, these three things that I cannot can’t do.

[00:08:54] Frank James: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. You bring that up because I’ll get comments on YouTube videos that are like, you’re not an introvert and an introvert could never make a YouTube video. And it’s like, what, what is, why are you thinking this way? You know? And, um, what, once you become aware of like, Myers-Briggs your Myers-Briggs type in particular.

What it can do is yeah. It gives you the ability to see maybe what has been holding you back. What has been, why you’ve been stuck on certain things to then open you up, to be able to accomplish more and things that you didn’t think you were able to, things that maybe you were afraid to do before. 

[00:09:32] Emma-Louise Parkes: One of my clients is an inf PT and she’d never really come across this.

She just kind of resonated with my content and thought, yeah, I’m an introvert and I’m highly sensitive. But, um, we did the test before we started working together and I could kind of tell from her questionnaire and what she was struggling with. I had a feeling that she was definitely going to be inf. Um, and then it came back and now she used, it’s so beautiful because rather than beating herself up for thinking, sometimes I don’t focus or I’m lazy or all of these things, she’s.

It’s just because I’m an IFP and FPT, it’s just part of who I am. So it allows her to be like, Hey, this is okay. Everyone’s different. And this is the way I operate. 

[00:10:12] Frank James: Yeah. And you also have to ask yourself, like, when I say I’m lazy, what are, what metric are we really using are, you know, because if you’re comparing yourself to some other.

Completely different personality, where to them being productive is like working 12 hours a day. And like having the numbers skyrocketing always then yeah. You’re going to feel like you’re lazy. If you have to take a long time to kind of think over stuff before you, uh, you know, to take your first step, which, you know, in general introverts take a lot more time before they, uh, Get into action.

And especially the, in Myers-Briggs the P types, they w can sometimes take a lot longer to get started. They feel like they have to take in a lot more information. Uh, the J types can get started a little bit faster because they’re like, oh, okay. I think they don’t need to take in quite as much information, but yeah, just, that’s just an example of understanding your type helps you to judge yourself based on the product.

Standards, you know, and it also, and the other side of that is it helps you realize how can I then push myself to get beyond where I’ve been, because your personality too. I can get you kind of in a loop of, you know, if you are an IFP, maybe you do often take a little too much time to get ready for whatever project you want.

And you, like, I just want to figure out how do I get started faster? Like what, what is my hang up there? And so then understanding personality type can help you look at it from that perspective. And then be like, oh, okay. I just need to push, push myself more in these certain areas. And, um, Then I can accomplish what I want.

I mean, and the funny thing as I’m talking here, I know it’ll probably be hard for people to understand because as an intuitive type. I, you know, I talk and like overviews and not so much specifics and examples that could make it difficult sometimes to get across what I’m trying to talk about. Even intuitives might be like, okay, I pick up sort of on the concepts you’re talking about here, but really don’t know exactly what, what we’re talking about.

Um, Yeah. So 

[00:12:40] Emma-Louise Parkes: I trust that their conceptual brains will, will get it. I it’s fun because most of my clients spend the first 10 or 15 minutes of our session doing just like a word vomit on me of that like 3d brain. And I think the reason that I work with most of them is we had some kind of like taster session or free session and they did that and they’re like, oh, sorry, if that doesn’t make sense.

I’m like, no, that makes complete sense. And it’s always like what someone understand. Like you don’t think it’s weird. I’m like, no, that makes complete sense. Um, so that I, that conceptual way of thinking definitely. I, I was an air traffic controller before I did this, so like massive change, but I worked on a radar screen, 3d, like complete conception.

Thinking, but to try to describe the thought process of how I’m separating aircraft and the sky to someone sat next to me, they’d just be like, what’s. 

[00:13:35] Frank James: Yeah. Well, and I find that fascinating because when I was listening to your podcast earlier, this is totally off subject, but I like one of my favorite things to listen to on YouTube are like air traffic control video.

So yeah, it’s, you know, because it is very conceptual. Like you have you, like, you have to keep all these things separated in your brain and think intuitively ahead about what’s going to happen. But there is also like a. Uh, sensory element to it. And that’s like a big dichotomy in Myers-Briggs as the intuition, which is all the conceptual abstract thought and projecting into the future and possibilities, and then sensing, which is like the facts, what is actually happening, what is observable.

And so you have to be able to go back and forth very quickly between both of those. And you have to stick with like the procedure in the sensory of like, I have to do this type of send this plane here. There’s a, we have to talk in this specific way. Um, which is why I think I find it fascinating because you can’t go all in on sensory.

You can’t go all in on intuition. You have to be very balanced, very able to go back and forth, which is, you know, it’s tough for most people. I think 

[00:14:52] Emma-Louise Parkes: it’s pretty tired on the brain. It’s interesting. Cause I definitely a lot of the controls I worked with were more so. Then ed is for sure. Um, a lot of people came from like mathematics, science backgrounds, like I did know, and it doesn’t make anyone any better or any worse at the job.

People just approach things very differently. And I started to realize as an instructor, when I was training new controllers, Certain ones were a dream to train because they thought in the same way as me and this is before I even knew about Myers-Briggs, but they, they would make a plan and execute in a very similar way.

Or if it’s say, you know, what are you thinking about this versus this? And they’d say something like, yes, that’s exactly what I would think that’s exactly what I would do. Um, and it was only much later that I started to realize that these people were, were inf. So as I started to understand it more. 

[00:15:43] Frank James: Yeah.

I mean, it’s the thing about the personality types is yeah. When you are trying to explain things to people, when, cause you could have any personality type could probably do that job, but some would like struggle to pick it up more. Some of them will get it right away. Some two, two different types maybe could pick it up right away, but we would need to approach it from different ways.

Um, which, and so that in and of itself is an example of why it’s valuable, especially if you are in business. To understand personality types so that when you are talking to other people, And there may be not getting what you’re saying. You can then think of what, you know, why aren’t they getting this as, you know, as their personality type kind of getting in the way of our communication.

And then maybe I can tailor my language to be, you know, a little bit different to suit, suit their understanding of that. 

[00:16:35] Emma-Louise Parkes: I love that now, no one listening. I don’t think should need an explanation of the difference between the I and the E I certainly hope not because I feel like I’m on a bit of a crusade to inform people that introversion is not about being shy or under-confident, or.

Those things and what it actually means. So I don’t think we need to touch on that. We’ve just touched on the sense and intuitive difference there and how we approach it. Can we just have a quick chat through the rest of the letter, just for anyone listening, thinking, how does this actually apply to me?

Like if they’ve taken the test, maybe read the report and they’ve got their letters. If they’re like, how does, how does that actually apply in life? 

[00:17:14] Frank James: Yeah. Um, well I’ll let me, I’ll go. I’ll back up again to intuition and sensitivity, just to make sure I cover everything the same way, but yeah, if you think of intuition as being the overviews, the concepts, the abstract, and sort of like the context, like how things are connected.

That’s the intuition and also like projecting out into the future, uh, looking at possibilities and in the sensing is the facts, what are the details? What can I prove? Like what can I actually point to and say that exists. That is the thing. So. Everyone does both. And that, that goes for all of it. Everyone has an introverted side and an extroverted side, even though like in general, you may, we may classify fire ourselves as introvert extrovert, but everyone has both sides.

It just comes out in different ways. Um, Same with intuition and sensing. Everyone has to do both. You wouldn’t be able to like function, but it comes down to what do we feel responsible for? Cause I can see all the facts and I can see all of the concepts and the overview, but as an intuitive I, and you as an intuitive feel more responsible to communicate and look after.

The abstract and then the, the details don’t matter as much. It’s like, whatever we can, we don’t have to look at those as closely, which is why you’ll see intuitives will have the facts in front of them sometimes. And like, just ignore them because they’re like, yeah, but that doesn’t fit in with. The pattern I have seen, like intuition is about patterns.

So they will just, they will make errors of fact frequently because that’s not as important to them. They don’t feel responsible to it where sensors are like, maybe I’ve seen this pattern happen over and over again, but the facts are pointing me to this other thing. So that’s what I have to prove this. I have to be able to say these are how the, this is factually.

What is correct? These are the details. When it comes, the next letter is to your AF in the four-letter type, that’s thinking or feeling. Which might seem obvious, right? Uh, thinking these are how you make decisions. So intuition and sensing is what we pay attention to what we observe, how we take in and organize information, thinking and feeling is how we make decisions and thinking is looking at.

How do things work? How to, how, what is the logic? How do we get results? Uh, and so it’s really looking at like putting things together, like a puzzle, whereas feeling is looking at not only the emotions and you know, how do I feel emotionally? How do other people feel? But also like, how do we value things?

What, what value do we put things on? Put on things and how do we prioritize? What’s important. What’s not important. What, what matters to us? What doesn’t matter? Because and feeling is really just like, it’s just like chemicals in the body. Like you can’t point to your feeling decisions and be like, well, this is going to get us this result.

This makes sense because of this, it’s really just like, I don’t know why that’s important to me. It’s just important to me, you know, that I value this. So that’s what I’m going to do. Um, or other people value it. See, that’s the thing with decisions. You know, depending on what type you are. And I’ll explain this a bit more.

The next letter, you may look more inward for your decision-making or you may look more outward and see like, what is the general consensus with other people? Uh, I never, like I said, everyone has both. You have thinking and you have field. You’ve used both all the time that you feel more responsible for one or the other.

Like, I feel like I can understand the logic of the situation, but I really have to go with the feeling I have to go with the value or the other way around, like everyone has emotions and feelings, but the thinkers are like, I’ve got to go with, what’s going to get results. That’s what I’m responsible for.

And then the last letter is J or P, which in my eyes, big stands for judging a perceiving. This litter is a bit more confusing, but in general, The P types may be, are a little less organized. They are more the explorers. They are looking for new information. They want to keep gathering in. That’s why they can have a hard time getting started with a project because they feel like they never have enough.

They want new information. If they are looking for the answer for something and they have, you know, Information already, the answer could be in the information they already know, but they’re like, actually I should get some more, I should gather some more information. Uh, and the types are also the ones who are more inward-focused when it comes to decisions P types generally.

We’ll be like, this is what I value, or this is what I think is logical. So I’m going to go based on that. Whereas J types, they are a bit more organized. They are the kind of people who, if they have to go gather in more or more information to find the right answer, they will instead just go back to the old information and see, how can I learn?

How can I look at this in a different way? How can I just like, keep with my known information? And that also leads them to be more organized because they’re just there. They’re going back to the same box of info all the time. And the J types when they’re making decisions are more outward focused. So they’re looking around at everyone else.

To kind of arrive at what is objectively valuable. What do other people feel about this? And then that affects how I feel. Um, what, what is just going to work objectively based on maybe what other people are thinking like the, the J types are much more. Uh, looking around them to kind of get a sense of what is, what is the consensus, uh, so that can lead them to have a bit more trouble with, uh, kind of doing their own thing.

And they can sometimes feel like they are. Uh, in a sense like martyring themselves for other people, depending on how like the EJS is, especially those types, very much marketers, but the IJs as well. It can be like, I feel they can feel nervous about kind of doing their own thing without the validation from other people.

So, yeah, that’s, that’s the quick rundown of what the four letters mean. And. How they, the thing is those four letters all really work together. So just because you have two people who are Pete types, like an IP type is going to be much different than an EAP type. And like what they’re really focused on, what freaks them out, what gets them stuck.

It’s you have to look at the whole type a to really figure it out. Like the dynamics of it. 

[00:24:17] Emma-Louise Parkes: Remember that it’s a spectrum as well. Like Mike. White high, like 80 something percent, like I’m truly introverted. But my F my T, where, you know, they’re pretty, you, it was like 55% or something towards the, towards the T.

So I kind of always feel with that. It’s not as strong. Maybe I switch between the two more frequently. Um, whereas, you know, I don’t really switch out to extroversion off. 

[00:24:44] Frank James: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and, you know, different types, people who are the same type can also kind of vary is there is a spectrum within each type.

So you can have an inf J who is very introverted and you can also have one who was more outgoing and social, a bit more extroverted. That first letter can be a little tricky. The I R E because with. Uh, well, first of all, it’s hard to always know where we actually lie on the spectrum, you know, because I think w you know, like if you’re not being totally.

Well, what am I trying to say? It’s hard. It’s just hard to know. Like some, I look at myself and I’m like, how, how introverted or extroverted really am I? And some people say, dude, you’re really extroverted. Some people are like, dude, you’re really introverted. So it’s really like, it’s really like trying to open up your mind and see like, where do I lie on that?

And people at the same time, All over the place 

[00:25:43] Emma-Louise Parkes: and something, I get asked quite a lot, a lot of my clients who are ex corporate and now they’re running their own business. They’ll take the test and they’ll be like, oh, I took this for HR when I was in my job. And I I’m completely different. Like, I’ve changed.

My type has changed. And I know some people will say, no, your type can not change. It is just what you are. Or the people say it depends. When you take the test, what frame of mind you’re in, what, you know, how you’re feeling and thinking about yourself then what are your thoughts on. 

[00:26:12] Frank James: Well, that’s, uh, I, my opinion is that your type doesn’t change, but it is true that you would type will change when you take the test, depending on how you feel on whatever day and whatever period in your life you’re in.

Because like, If I took the, well, I know the test now, if I came into Myers-Briggs without knowing it right now, I might score differently than I did five years ago, because I feel like I’m more outgoing now and things like that. So, um, It’s tough. Like when you it’s, there’s just the issue of self-testing.

I think that’s really what it is because we’re, so we can’t really see ourselves very clearly. That’s why, uh, I mean the, the online tests can get you to a certain place and they are valuable to an extent, but it always helps to have an outsider to help you with that. If you’re really into the typology stuff to have like, you know, an NBTI practitioner or whatever, or to have.

Um, you know, people who are quote unquote type experts give you their opinion, but you can even just like ask the people around you and be like, Hey, do you, what would you say I am more introverted or more extroverted? Like just asking 10 people that you know, or asking them, do you think I’m more logical or more like emotional when I’m making decisions?

Right. When you get a lot of people’s opinions, then you can start to say, oh, okay. And, uh, if you think about that, from your perspective, looking at other people, I mean, there are people who do change it over time, but it’s like a lot of people are basically the same. Like a lot of the people I know, I would say they’re on the same part of the spectrum now, as they were.

Five 10 years ago, even though they may, might’ve grown a lot as a person. It’s like, yeah, they’re still basically still making decisions logically or they’re still basically an introvert. So, um, that’s the thing to keep in mind is that type isn’t, even though I think your type doesn’t change, that’s not meant to put you in a box and say, you can’t like reinvent yourself.

You can’t improve yourself. You can be like a totally different. The way you act in the world can be totally different and you can still really have the same operating system underneath in terms of type. So, um, and people who. Really get into self-improvement and really like take responsibility for every part of their life.

And who, you know, are really working on themselves over time can seem so balanced that it’s like, I don’t know what type they are anymore. So, so it’s like, I mean, maybe that’s all semantics, but so I would say people keep their type, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t limit you. Like, you can still do whatever you want in life.

Sorry, my, my audio just went out. Let me, I don’t know if it’s my

I’m going to plug in headphones.

Um,

Um,

one second.

Okay, let me see if I can hear you now. Okay. How’s that I can hear you now. And this is like a typical IMFJ thing is it’s like these, uh, the things fell apart. The things stopped working. It’s like, I’m freaking out over here because I suddenly couldn’t hear you. And now. These AirPods. I’m like what a terrible waste of money they were.

But, um, yeah. So I’m sorry, what was the last, the last thing you said? 

[00:30:33] Emma-Louise Parkes: So calm, deep breaths. And the last thing I said was look, I’ve got the inf J memory. So, how do you feel about things like Enneagram and human design and all of these other ways that we can like start to type ourselves? Do you think that they work well with Myers-Briggs or do you think they kind of go against it?

[00:30:57] Frank James: Yeah, I think, uh, I mean, I think they’re all great. I definitely prefer Myers-Briggs. I think Enneagram is the easiest. System to get into because it is nine distinct types that don’t really overlap. And so it’s maybe easier to pick up on what type you are and relate to it. Whereas Myers-Briggs is kind of weird because it’s like a bunch of different moving parts that combined to make different types.

So it’s maybe a little harder to latch onto. Uh, at first, but you’ll see a lot of people who get into Thai apology, do everything. Like they’ll say, I’m this Myers-Briggs type, I’m this Enneagram type. So on and so forth. So I think Enneagram is great, but you know, it has its limitations because. The way that it has nine distinct types, one type isn’t like the opposite of another type, which can make it difficult to kind of say, what, how should I not be like, or what should I try to be?

Like, what should I be aspiring to? Um, but it’s the it’s, what’s great about Enneagram is that right now it’s very popular. And getting to be very mainstream. So that means there’s a lot of stuff written about it and there’s a lot of people getting into it. And then, uh, I don’t know about human design, but like scientifically when that is always big as the big five, uh, the test, the five factor model, otherwise known as ocean and that, you know, that is really, that is a scientist.

The personality model where you’re kind of like on a, on a percentage scale with each of those factors. And that’s, that can be very helpful to know, like, to know that you are, uh, you know, for example, high in neuroticism can. Can really open up some things and make you go, oh, that’s why I’m worried about everything all the time.

Okay. So I think it’s great. I think it’s good to dive into as many personality things as you want to. And I think at some point you will find one. Dear listener. That is, that makes sense to you. And that’s the one that you should really dig into because for me, Myers, Briggs is clicked and made sense. And especially once I found the right resources for it and started really learning about it, that was when I was able to really get into.

[00:33:36] Emma-Louise Parkes: I have to agree with you. My heart lies with Myers Briggs, Enneagram. I’m an eight. I read it. I go, yeah, I see the Enneagram eight meetings and I laugh because I go, yeah, but it doesn’t feel as personalized almost. Maybe like you say, because it is the very distinct types and they’re not really the opposite or the complimentary of each other.

[00:33:58] Frank James: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it’s true. Like with the Enneagram, like I’m a type four and when I read stuff about type four, I’m like, this is embarrassing. This is like really true, you know? So, um, and th and they talk about different things like Enneagram is really about what are you most afraid of? What is your biggest fear in life?

And it’s very. Specific each one Myers-Briggs doesn’t focus as much on that. Although like you can really say like each type is afraid of this specific thing, but it’s not quite as, I guess, emotionally provocative as Enneagram is. So, um, So it really just depends. I know tons of people who love Enneagram and they’re like, it’s so much better than Myers-Briggs and I’m like, okay, well, whatever, but, but for them, it is.

So it’s like, uh, that’s why you just got to find, find the one that works for you and it helps you to improve. One thing I’ve noticed though, one of my friends pointed this out to me is that people who get into any program, it’s sort of just like, this is my title. And this is who I am and it’s like, they kind of just stop there.

Whereas people who get into Myers Briggs are really trying to dig in deeper to like understand all of these things about themselves. And that’s not a knock on Enneagram or people who, who are into it. I think it’s just the nature of how popular it is. And so many people have gotten into it recently. And, and because of that emotional.

Uh, jolt that it gives you when you find your type, especially in Enneagram, because the types are all distinct. And, um, yeah, so that’s just one observation, but, uh, maybe I shouldn’t have said that now that I’m thinking about it and I’m like, Frank was that productive, but I mean, I think, I think it’s just, you know, I, the warning there, I guess, is if you’re getting into personality, I realize that it’s not supposed to just be like, oh, yay.

My type. Moving on. It’s more supposed to be like, how do I use this information to improve myself, to understand myself, to understand. 

[00:36:09] Emma-Louise Parkes: It’s a journey. It’s like a journey of self discovery versus just like, oh, okay. I know what I am next. 

[00:36:15] Frank James: Yeah, exactly. Because at that point it’s just like a horoscope and you know, which is fine if that’s what you want, but that’s not why I’m in it.

[00:36:26] Emma-Louise Parkes: So I’m going to wrap up there, but obviously before that you go, I ain’t going to ask you, I’ll ask all of my guests, which book would you recommend to my audience of ambitious introverts who are creating that business online? 

[00:36:39] Frank James: Well, since we, you know, let’s keep it, uh, thematic here. So if you really want to get into Myers Briggs, I’ll give a I’ll give, even after I slandered Enneagram, I’ll give, I’ll give recommendations for both.

If you really want to learn about Myers Briggs, getting the book gifts differing, which is like the official Myers-Briggs book is very good. And. Am I, I’m not sure it might be out of print. You might have to go to like thrift books to get it, to get like a used copy and. It’s it just goes into a lot of great detail.

A lot of it is like statistical data, which might be boring, but there are, there’s quite a bit of just like lists of attributes for each type and like what you should expect from each one. And like what the letters mean. And you know what to expect if you’re interacting with people of that type. So that’s a really good book that I always go back to for Myers-Briggs types.

And then for Enneagram types, this book is like a lot more dense is personality types. It’s just called personality types. Uh, I think now I’m trying to remember, uh, buy 

[00:37:52] Emma-Louise Parkes: and I can drop it in the show notes or whatever. 

[00:37:54] Frank James: Yeah, bye. Yeah. Bye Don Richard Riso. That’s very, in-depth on the Enneagram types. Very good read.

Um, and then if you want to go back to like the, um, the founding, uh, like what Myers-Briggs is based on Carl Young’s psychological types, uh, which is a very thick book, but the part where he talks about the types is that the very end, uh, A very good read. If you want to go for a deep dive, when it comes to, uh, the origins of Myers-Briggs and personality types, it’s very fascinating.

And, uh, yeah, there’s just so much to learn so much to dig into. And particularly those first two books I mentioned are a great place to. To gather more information. 

[00:38:41] Emma-Louise Parkes: Amazing. I get a drop those in the show notes, going to drop all of your links, where everyone can find you online and show notes as well.

Thank you for coming and sharing your highly conceptual inf Jay. Take on this with me today. I really appreciate 

[00:38:56] Frank James: it. Well, Emma, Louise, thanks so much for having me on the show. I appreciate it.